Recording and Transcript: Accessibility in Moodle with RepresentEdTech

Introduction

[James:] Good morning everyone, good morning ladies and gentlemen, thank you for registering, and thank you for taking part today. For those of you who have registered and are not taking part and are watching this on video later good morning to you as well. And for those of you who are registered and or have registered and are attending this session is being recorded and the recording will be shared with you afterwards in a couple of hours after this is finished.

So thank you again for registering. This is a webinar on accessibility in Moodle. I’m James  Bennett. I’m the chief executive of RepresentEdtech Scandinavia AB and I shall be hosting this webinar. I’m joined by Gavin Henrick and Laia Canet of Brickfield so hello to them, RepresentEdtech is a relatively newly started EdTech consultancy we are based in Stockholm we are made up of industry veterans we have 25 maybe even more than that years experience of customer success implementation and EdTech in general. 

We are the exclusive resellers of Turnitin Scandinavia we are also resellers for a number of  other leading EdTech solutions such as Brightspace by D12, Beyond Labs the virtual laboratory  system, Citation z for citations and references, VerifyEd for digital certificates and a few  other systems as well.  Please feel free to let me know if you’d like any further information  about them.  For full transparency we’re also resellers of Brickfield Education Labs accessibility  plugin and Gavin and I go back several years before all that as well, so it’s one of the reasons  why I’m very comfortable with this today’s webinar, because I know Gavin and I know Brickfield’s  accessibility toolkit as well a little bit.  But this is not a sales pitch we’re here to talk  about accessibility in Moodle and what it means.  So again I’m joined by Gavin and Laia from  Brickfield. 

A very warm welcome to you both good morning to you, good morning good morning good morning.   So I think that was that was romantic. Gavin over to you about Brickfield. 

[Gavin:] Hi there everyone so I’m Gavin Henrick I’m one of the co-founders of Brickfield Education  Labs. I myself have worked in the Moodle space for I think 17 years now and came across James when  he worked for a prior company and I’ve been sort of working in that space for a while and also worked  with Moodle for three and a half years but about two and a half three years ago and we set up Brickfield  Education Labs to start focusing on improving the quality of online learning and specifically about  making it more available to all and for that that’s where accessibility comes in. So we have we started  work on an accessibility toolkit and worked with people piloting it and then ultimately we also have  partnered with Moodle as well around accessibility and our premium and enterprise service is a Moodle  certified integration.  

That means that when we sell that we also give a portion of that revenue back to Moodle to help keep  the Moodle project going and as part of the collaboration we put a small part of our product into  Moodle 3.11 and that’s also going to be in 4.0 which is coming out over the next few months so it’s  something that we’ve a lot of experience working with Moodle and we’re actively collaborating with  Moodle on the core product and providing this extra service to help institutions improve the  accessibility of their course content. So that’s sort of our background and we’re we’re as I said  we’re a new company. We have 10 people at the moment based in Ireland, Spain and in Canada. 

[James:] sounds good sounds good Laia would you like to have a very quick introduction? 

[Laia:] Hi I’m from Barcelona I’m the Spanish part of the team and I’ve been working with Moodle  also for about 15 years as a teacher and in different roles so and now I am working on accessibility  too in Moodle and I’m very excited about it. 

[James:] Excellent stuff thank you very much all right Gavin, accessibility and this why we’re here today  this is the topic I mean it’s a large topic it’s received increasing amounts of focus in the last couple  of years, go on then why in very general terms why has there been focus these last few years?   Why wasn’t there focus sooner? 

[Gavin:] Gosh well I suppose technology’s new in I suppose the scheme of things and in teaching terms  it’s been something that’s been heavily used now over the last 20 years but there has been an  increasing sort of age of people who are used to technology and their profile and their needs are  changing.  So I now use reading glasses or should use reading glasses when reading and so I like  being able to have my font size bigger on my devices and also more people are getting access to  technology and using technology in schools and in colleges and university and there’s been a big swing  on the last 10 years about blended learning and that is where learning management systems are being used  hand-in-hand with face-to-face delivery of degrees.  So a more focus on ensuring the content that was going  into those learning management systems are usable by all of the students. Then of course Covid just ramped  that up over the last two years where there was a massive pivot I guess for some, or just a continuation  of that online usage where suddenly you’ve really shone a light on that usability of online platforms and  the content that was in them. Now apart from all of that then a few years ago you had an EU directive  come in about accessibility of public service and publicly funded bodies and which would include universities  and that kind of thing to really ensure that the content inside there and the mobile apps and so on were  accessible especially with the increasing user usage of mobile.  But there are laws around the world on  accessibility and digital accessibility. So it’s just been building, pressures coming from multiple sides  and also the demands you know. People want to be able to to use the content in the way that they need. 

[James:] Refreshing, thank you. I mean how how would you describe Gavin how would you describe digital  accessibility and again in terms aimed at people who are perhaps not yet aware of it or for someone who  is not as well you have fully understood the dynamics, who has not fully understood the dynamics of  digital accessibility, so in layman’s terms please. 

[Gavin:] Okay well to talk about accessibility let’s first talk about digital or sorry disability  itself so Sarah Horton had a really good piece, “A Web for Everyone” and that’s certainly something I  recommend, and it talks about that when websites and applications are badly designed, they create barriers  that exclude people from using the web as it was intended.  Just as if you built a house for people and then  you put in steps rather than a ramp you’re building a barrier for someone and you’re badly designing it for  some people whether they’re using prams or whether they’re using a wheelchair.  So poor accessibility in  the physical or in the digital world creates this disabling environment where the design doesn’t consider  the wide variation in human ability and experience so in other words disability is a conflict between  someone’s functional capability and the world that we construct.  Be it the physical world or the digital world  and that is the social view that she espouses of her disability.  That the product creates this barrier, not  the person.  So the design is at fault when a site has poor usability.  So if you think about that it is about  ensuring that these barriers are not there, that you don’t build barriers, that you do make a web available to  everyone.  There was a really interesting movement over the last few years about this concept of a contract  for the web. 

Tim Berners-Lee, one of the founders of the web and many other organisations got together to produce this  contract which has various principles and one of them was about making them the internet accessible to all.  So you have to understand the wide variety of human ability and remember that not every disability is visible,  not everyone walks around with an arrow on their head saying I’ve got a disability.  So you have if you make  it available to all then you’re being as inclusive as possible so that’s where I think disability accessibility  sort of comes in.

[James:] It’s interesting you say that, I mean I read somewhere I can’t remember where I must confess, that around  70 percent of students say they use captions on videos, something close to my heart. I have tremendous difficulty  hearing especially in videos, especially more than one sound at the same time so I use captions. I love captions.  So what do we need to do to get this kind of information out there to get this out there? 

[Gavin:] So I use captions as well for different reasons than yourself, your captions as an example can be used  useful for many people, so for foreign language students and speakers. So if someone’s watching an English video or a video with English audio and they have English as a second language, captions correct captions can help them  and understand but it could be somebody might have a temporary disability or a situational one, there might be distractions so listening is a little bit harder or there could be strong background noise if they’re in a commercial  area or you could be in a boring meeting watching a a video on YouTube and not able to have the sound up so.   Of course I’d never recommend doing that but allegedly I’m sure I’m sure it happens! So how you get this out there is  get an understanding that you know these tools, these capabilities this which is for accessible purposes are used by  many. 

So 71 percent of those students aren’t using them because of a disability but they’re using them because they benefit  them just like a ramp benefits someone in a wheelchair or someone who wants to walk up the ramp too. So I think that’s one of the big things is to try and get away from this is just supporting a small group, actually it benefits everybody  and by building and designing an environment that doesn’t put barriers in the way of people’s usage depending on their  variety of capability. 

[James:] That makes sense yeah if we if we move a little bit over over to Moodle now I see that Moodle 3.11 or 3.11 or  311 was just the W.C.A.G. 2.1 or WCAG 2.1 certified, what about the earlier versions of Moodle are they perhaps bad in  terms of accessibility Laia, what would you say about this? 

[Laia:] Well but in terms of accessibility we have to differentiate the platform and the content Moodle tries to make  the platform Moodle as inclusive and accessible as possible and for everyone for all and that’s what have Moodle been doing when when they have. They were some years ago there was an external audit performed against the web content  accessibility guidelines the W.C.A.G. the 2.1 and they audit 20 of the key pages of Moodle the most used and the most  important for different kind of users so they start fixing some issues and solving them through Moodle 3.9 but it was  it was it was not until November 2020 in the 3.10 that they get the certification so from then the 3.10 and 3.11 are  certificate certified too and also the mobile app is certified. So it’s important that we have the the platform is is  certified and is accessible but we have to remember that also when we create when we create contents this content  should be accessible too so it’s up to us too. 

[James:] Yes of course because it’s what we put in Moodle that’s what is what Moodle itself is.  Speaking of putting  things in Moodle like often people use images um you know pictures too and I hear a lot of a lot of conversations I’ve  had with faculty you know teachers and other users and admins they they talk about images and they are worried about  images by using them because it’s not just the copyright now it’s also the accessibility of this would you have any  specific you know do’s and don’ts any specific tips for for using images. 

[Laia:] Yeah sure for of course images are usually an important part of our contents of our courses and you said that  yeah these are the the property rights issues but also the accessibility issues first of all I think the most important  thing is that our images should have a teaching purpose.  Why are you doing using this this image, what we want to to  get from this.  Then we would be able to to see okay, this image needs a description we have to make visible this image  to everyone and to everyone means, to someone who uses a screen reader but maybe someone who has a bad internet connection  and uh that doesn’t can’t download images or or see them okay.  So the most important thing about accessibility in images  is to try to describe them, and this this this description should be with the most important information.  Okay so if we  have the teaching purpose of this image, is it clear we will get a better description?  Also sometimes we add images that  have some text on the image and if the text is on the image a screen reader is not able to read it.  So we should repeat  the text on this image in the in the alternative text of the of the image.  Sometimes yeah there are other issues about  the quality of the image, about the colour contrast. If it’s not enough it could be difficult to understand the or to see the the image itself and also other quality issues about pixelation.  Remember that some some people need to magnify the the content so if the quality of the image is too bad when they magnify the image, the image has no sense. So these kind of things should be be aware of it and try to maintain to create our images as as good as possible. 

[James:] makes sense makes sense, images are images obviously I mean they’re they’re interesting things but video is super  popular these days and there’s very much used. Do you I mean I I don’t want to go on about closed captions because it’s not  just about me it’s but everyone else.  Will we have any tips for for video, how do you include how how do you get their  videos to have subtitles or closed captions? 

[Laia:] Well first of all I would like to make some initial remarks because nowadays we’re using video more often and after  Covid I think video is the the star tool for more most of teachers and most of online learning but we have to remember a  video is a video file it only contains information about images and sounds okay there is no other information.  So we create  closed captions. There are the text that captions is a text file that contains the time when its text should be shown okay  so we have the captions are the exact text sets on the video so how we create accessible videos.  We need these captions  but these captions only reproduce the spoken words.  So if the video itself is talking for example about an image and we  don’t describe it, the this video is not accessible, even it has captions so it’s not only about captions it’s about thinking  about the whole educational content we are creating.  How can we make it as accessible as possible if we don’t explain or or we don’t if we don’t describe the image we will need an audio description so we will need more extra information.   So for this reason I think it’s good to have in mind that if we are creating a video and we are talking about an image if  we described the image in the video itself when we are talking we don’t need any extra description or any extra source so  if we think from the beginning all this, these things, we will have less work later and we can include everything and everyone  sometimes and we have to think about also, about the teaching purpose of this video and in fact of any resource but also for  videos because maybe a video could be an alternative format for another document. It’s not a video itself the first point of the of the content but it’s an alternative.  If we provide alternative it’s always better for for our students, so it’s  important what kinds of tools can we use.  You ask it specifically for this, but first I wanted to talk about it because I  think it’s important first to create a good video and then see how can we create it in Moodle.  We can upload videos and if  we have the the captions we can upload them too so there is no problem.  The problem is probably creating the the captions  if we don’t want to upload the videos in our Moodle sites.  We can use other services like for example YouTube, Vimeo, Captura, Mediacore, Panopto any other platform that your your organisation may have, and usually these kind of of services provides  have the capability to do captions by uploading or creating directly in the in the interface and sometimes there is an  automatically generation about the captions but.  Okay, as you know everything that is automatic is not 100 percent accurate  so please if you want if you work with automatically generated captions, you have to check it for sure okay because sometimes  there is some special misunderstandings and yes if you don’t have any of this licence you can go to YouTube.  YouTube has different services, yeah sometimes it took auto creates the captions can work with different languages too. Languages is also an issue working with captions and these these tools every day all the tools are improving and working  better with different languages but yeah English is that, it works better in English than in other languages usually and  you have always to remember that you need to check and correct the the captions because do you we have to think that the  captions are the text that people is reading so is the only for some people is the only way of comprehension of the content  of our video so if there is something that is not accurate or as a very important word is not well written or it changes  the concepts and so it contains the the understanding yeah and yeah I think with this clues you can create a good good  captions and good videos for your course. 

[James:] Sounds good, sounds good Gavin, anything to add? 

[Gavin:] Yeah I mean I think with a transcript one thing I like about having a transcript from and we will have it  we will have it for this session, it’s being able to search through it.  That’s the one thing I want, being able to  search through it, look for any keywords, find what time in the video it is and then go and watch that part.  So it  also makes videos more indexable in in that respect so I like it but yeah it’s I like looking back over the transcript  and just double checking that I understood. You can’t ask a lecturer to rewind in real time, so I think videos are  always good although sometimes you might want to 

[James:] Yeah not more than once at least people get out you’re getting annoyed moving onto more specific things now  if I may could we focus a bit more on the actual accessibility checking tool that Brickfield offers and I’d like to  hear how it how it integrates with Moodle.  I assume the actual technical side of things is something that anyone  who is an administer or host of Moodle can handle but how does it, tell us about how it works with Moodle? 

[Gavin:] It’s a suite of plugins that get installed into Moodle. Now our paid for product, our enterprise and premium  system works with 3.9 3.10 and 3.11, and the free starter version is just in 3.11 and will be in 4 as well. So we  have a set of plugins that get dropped in, admin tools, blocks, filters, that kind of thing and that’s pretty  straightforward.  They get access to our private Git repository to be able to deploy the integration part of  the system and then they configure it with our the account settings that we give them so that’s just something  then that’s set to run in the background. And when a teacher requests that their course be assessed it will then  schedule that assessment and then the results will be available to the teacher so it’s quite straightforward  in installing and configuring it in that respect 

[James:] Okay okay that makes sense how you know in in what kind of circumstances within within the tool which  you know how can you present automated analysis, how are teachers notified of of stuff. 

[Gavin:] Okay well as I mentioned so once they add the block in then they can see that block and that shows the  results and I’ll show it on a demo in a moment so it instantly just displays the different types of errors and  how many of each error that they found and we aggregate them into sort of less technical concepts like image,  media, table, layout and links and so on so to try and make it a bit more digestible but they also then have a  full-blown report they can download a printout for a pdf that they can print with a summary of all the issues,  how many things passed and failed and so on so it’s we’re giving them information in different ways for  different purposes but once they go to the dashboard then they can get into the nitty-gritty of each individual  issue and get some background on it and then help try and solve that problem as well. 

[James:] So can admins review these before?

[Gavin:] Yeah exactly so the teacher can see it at a course level but admin can see it all of the courses  are at a category level or just an overall overview of all the courses so they can go wow okay we’ve got  1000 issues across all our courses there’s 50 in this one 20 and that one and so on so they can get this  bird’s eye view of this which I think is really important. 

[James:] Okay makes sense makes sense.I’ve got a question in the chat. I’m gonna keep an eye ball in the chat in the q&a as well, sorry people who are participating, do feel free to to write things in the chat or the  q&a.  About the cost of the toolkit in in 3.11 you say there’s a there’s a free version?

[Gavin:] Yeah there’s a free version it’s like a demo or freemium so they can get where it was a small small  amount of the checks and some of the reporting but all of the extra stuff which I’ll go through um so at the  end of this I’ll give an example pricing where you can sort of see for a typical organisation because what  we do is we we work in bands in pricing.  So like for zero to 2000 users two to five five to ten and so on.  So it really depends on the size of an organisation, so but we’ll come back to that one thank you for that  query so yeah that’s 

[James:] Okay so what we’re saying is that teachers and admins of course because sorry that’s a stupid  question of course admins can see these things, he nods, so teachers get the analysis teachers get the  reports and guidance on how to improve things what what what are students what do students get from what  what are they seeing then from the platform?

[Gavin:] Well the first thing they’re gonna see is hopefully more accessible content when the teachers  implement all the fixes they need to so that’s a let’s take that as a given well do they benefit from that  but they also have an option to be able to convert a file resource such as say a pdf into a format that  they they need so they might can run and convert it to an audio file so they can listen to the content instead of just reading it or there’s various text options maybe that pdf they want to convert to a word document so they can use it in immersive reader or maybe as an eBook so they can look at it on their on their iPad. I use books on an iPad for my my eBooks all the time or maybe they need a digital braille file so the student can choose to convert that file resource into a format that they need well on top of that when they’re creating like a forum post they’re going to see the benefit of the improved add image options when they go to create a link and if they’re using the words click here or something like that it will prompt them going hey you shouldn’t be using that, you should use a more descriptive link. So they’re getting multiple sort of benefits from it so the passive one not just it being improved where they’re creating stuff and also then them creating alternate formats so it really is trying to improve their learning experience, in that way that’s good then everyone benefits from it. yeah and I should say we also have an option that is a plug-in that was developed in the one of the U.K. universities that we recommend to our clients that they can improve their theme and add these extra settings so that the student can choose a different font, different font size, extra spacing so that they and also the background colour and so they can create their own version of the interface that they need.  Because often with some disabilities they want to have a different colour than say pure white backgrounds that kind of thing to make it easier to read.

[James:] Makes sense, make sure yeah can I ask you to show us? 

Toolkit Demonstration

[Gavin:] Yeah I’ll just go through a quick demo now that’s no problem at all.  So I’m going to show you a Moodle 3.9 site um rather than 3.11 just to show our platform does work on the different different ones so just go into here.  

So welcome to Rome we haven’t been doing much travelling during Covid so over here we have the the accessibility review block we can see the three columns with image layout link media table and text and how many errors they have and then there’s also guides here on the right hand side and let’s say I’m just going to reset that and so if a teacher is trying to figure out why would there be 11 issues with their links they get a guide which will take them through this and this is all language strings so it can be translated into different languages.  

It’s already been translated in Spanish we’re just updating our French one at the moment but it’s also a language string so the teachers or the admin I should say should be able to change the language if they want. So they’re getting a sort of insights into what they 

should be doing here even without going through a training course there’s also a heat map where they can get this visualisation so as you can see here it’s colour icon and wording so it isn’t just using colour alone and here you can see for this another test page resource that does their account of six six issues on that course on on that activity and they can get a good scan on their whole course there of what’s good and what’s bad in that respect as mentioned that they can download stuff there but when they actually go into their dashboard. It’s when they get to actually see the different specific issues that have come up so here for example a link text should be descriptive and provide context about its destination, so they can go why and there’s a bit here about the summary and the impact of if they don’t do that.  And then they can go they can click one view to get a list of all of those types of issue and then go off directly to see where they are. So I’ll just pop that up so here, they get a list of the six entries which are not descriptive and they can click on edit and off they go to edit that page resource you can see here, there is an example where there is a google doc URL being used as the text as well as the actual URL that the link is going to, however, we also have a set of toolkits.  So and in this case here this is a table with each one of the issues on one row here we can see that the link text is that google URL so we go off to that google doc and we get the web page name and we suggest that they should use that because it’s more descriptive.  It’s saying where they’re going literally and down here as well where Irishtimes.com is used as the text we go off to that site and we get the name of the website, and you might want to edit it a little bit and then you can just submit your bulk fixing and all of them will be fixed, wherever they happen to be in your course. This makes it easier for the teacher to be supported in learning what to do right so it’s learning by doing and nudging them in a better direction we have a good number of these of these wizards or tools and we have a road map of more than twice as many as what we have at the moment.  One example here is a fix “all caps” and this is where a paragraph is in all caps we all rely to some extent on the shape of words to to be doing reading but there are some some people with disabilities who absolutely need that and therefore we’re suggesting changing to something called sentence case and you can just look at the two of them and see the one on the right is more more readable.  So we’re nudging them again in that behavioural change.  Here we have the fixing images with alt text so we have a number of images and different parts of the course which don’t have descriptions and therefore they can add those subscriptions in here and just click submit all and they will be fixed, wherever they might be in the course.  So it’s about supporting the teacher and supporting them in helping fix these issues. 

We have another one here which is fix link target so these links here are all currently opening in a new window, there’s many reasons why that can be bad and confusing, the back button is all is the most used feature in Moodle or sorry most used feature in a browser, so going into a new window can be disorienting for people and cause anxiety and also if someone’s using a screen magnifier or a screen reader if they don’t know they’re going into a new window they can also get lost as well so it’s not it’s not always a good thing to do, in fact we don’t recommend it so this will remove all of those commands to open in a new window.  

We have an a few others there as well which I’m going to leave for the moment 

We also have a log which allows the teacher to undo one of those mistakes so if they or corrections that they made so if they typo-ed one of the names and they want to undo that one and go and do it again they have a log here that they can restore from.  Now on the reporting side of things we have a number of reports here. This one here shows that like there’s six pages that have failed and nine that have passed and you have this graph showing the pass and failure numbers for all the different types of things within the Moodle course and then within the content types we can also then see a breakdown of image layout and so on here in a donut and so yeah we we used cupcake ipsum and then we’re using donuts so I hope I’m not making you hungry at least for the product. From an admin point of view they can get a view of a category where all of the different courses have been analysed and see a higher level view of that and they can also have access to a course list as well so they can get to see and understand where those issues are, so that’s the kind of things that the platform is really focusing on that’s finding and fixing. The one thing I will show you as well though, is I’ll just turn off that heat map and down here there’s a word document being uploaded into Moodle so if the student comes along and goes yeah I would like that audio and because they’re used to using audiobooks they like a little bit faster.

[James:] Sorry Gavin if I can interrupt there’s actually a fantastic time to answer a question that came in through the, through the chat just now asking which formats can you download content content in via the toolkit could you you could go through the things here if you may? 

[Gavin:] Yeah so that’s that’s why I was sorry so they can choose to convert it to five different types, either a text format an audio an eBook a daisy audio book or a braille file and so for example with text that word document can become a tagged pdf so they can use it in a pdf reader in that respect or plain text with audio they can choose to the different speeds that they might want and for eBooks then if they use a Kindle they’ll want a Mobi format or they’ll want an Epub if you’re like me and they use an iPad and if they’re also like me they’ll probably want to increase the font size as well so they’re the kind of things which are most people would want to be able to do.  There’ll also be some people who will need to have a digital braille file and this will allow them to configure that.  So yeah, and all they do is just click on request and it will come through and if it’s already converted it will immediately download for them if it hasn’t been converted yet the request will go off and they’ll be notified when. And so that’s that’s really some of the key parts of of the platform. I’m not going to go through every single piece but it has this idea of supporting the staff in helping identify and fix the issues but also supporting the students and being able to access content in the way that they need.

Webinar Q&A

[James:] Sounds good, to answer another question here no I’m not gonna answer, you are, what do you think is the is the single biggest, the single biggest issue that that you think that your plugin solves. 

[Gavin:] Oh gosh, there are two, the first one is having the plugin in there is increasing your awareness for teachers of accessibility and the importance of accessibility and I was speaking to a university just last night and from the U.S. and they’re they’re just initially starting with the starter tool and because of the way we’ve done it it’s a bit gamified so their teachers want to get all those errors down to zero so we’re creating motivation we’re trying to build momentum in that way. And the rest of our toolkit which helps address these issues in bulk then have cost savings related to that so I think it is about bringing accessibility up in the consciousness of the institution and of the staff and also then saving time and and money in helping address those issues so I think that’s the key one and but ultimately it’s about making the course content more accessible for all the students, that’s the ultimate benefit, but issue wise it is a cost saving so be able to do things in bulk, being able to get files converted without any extra effort on the teachers side they’re easy wins. 

[James:] Sounds good sounds good. Laia, would you would you agree with that? You have any throw in there? 

[Laia:] Yes for me I think for teachers that begin to try to create more accessible content it’s like an empty page no and beginning it’s a difficult to begin in this journey it’s the first step is always the most difficult one so I think that the the toolkit can help teachers to to to to do this to to start this journey and to see where to begin, understand why they are doing it and how can they improve it, and also it helps them to create more accessible content so if you are creating directly accessible content you don’t need to fix later so you are it’s an investment in your time and also in your efforts if we do it right at first we don’t need to check recheck and change and the process is shorter and it will have more quality it will be more with more quality too. 

[James:] That makes sense it’s a lot it’s a lot easier and a lot quicker really to spend a bit more time doing it than doing it quickly and then fixing it later yeah all righty then I think we’re coming to the end of our of our time today. 

[Gavin:] I will just answer that one question without price, so, so if you were to think about our lowest level so that’s from the zero to 2000 users so our enterprise software costs basically five and a half thousand euro a year for for for that level and it is something that every institution will have their own level and we can discuss more formal quotes with them and sometimes they want more an extra support than what just initially provided so but that’s our enterprise platform price point. So if people do have more students than 2000 just get in contact with James and we’ll be able to provide you with a quote for that, that won’t be a problem. 

[James:] I’ll just throw my email address here in the chat as well I’m very happy to take any questions and answer them of course later on there it goes james@representedtech.com, so I think that as we come to an end I think it’s you know I’m I am incredibly grateful to to Gavin and to Laia and to you know obviously people who have participated with questions and just by participating in the webinar but massive thanks to to Gavin and to Laia for taking the time out of your day to share your wealth of knowledge with us. Laia I must say you are making some very good points about the images thank you. I you know there’s you know you learn something new every day people say, and I think I for one have learned dozens of things today and I’m very grateful to you too for that.  

Thank you to everyone for participating, if any further questions like I said please feel free to let me know so once again. Thank you ladies and gentlemen for participating, many thanks again to Gavin and to Laia for today and I hope to hear from you, to hear more about Brickfield Education Labs accessibility tool in Moodle to find fix and future-proof things. Brilliant stuff, thank you everybody bye-bye bye thanks bye now.